wordplay | Follow up to this morning's post

Follow up to this morning's post

The post in question

God, do y'all rule. Responses to individual comments coming soon, but I decided to make this its own post just to keep from typing the same stuff out multiple times - just seemed a neater way to continue the conversation. THANK YOU to those who chimed in previously - lots of food for thought in there, and I know because I've been chewing on it all day.

So I was chatting with Josh today (who, by the way, appears to have left LJ behind but who is in fact still alive and well) about all this, and I had to fill him in on it, so this is what I said:

him: And no, I've never heard that expression...what's it meant to mean?

me: well, that's the thing
it USED to mean, "what a fine upstanding thing to do"
but now it's used more ironically and is v. similar to "gee, that's awfully big of you"
and what I'm trying to tease out is whether people who would never use the first one because it's so overtly racist find the second meaning more acceptable for their personal use
because it's such a conscious undermining of the racist content
or if just HAVING it there is still too much
but that's really tricky - most of the respondents have been like, "racist, same as 'jew you down'" that kind of thing

him: That's interesting.

me: which I think might miss the point?
I don't know

him: Well, it misses the point of your question. :)

me: well, because I didn't ASK the question
Because, you know, you don't want to lead people

him: I mean, yes, obviously it's racist, but the question is whether using it with a more sardonic meaning undercuts the racism.

me: These are really hard to solicit well, actually
well, and also
I think there are people who could use it who would never KNOW that it was once said as quite sincere praise
kind of like how people use the word "gyp" without ever thinking of gypsies/Rom?
only not exactly - like, they might realize that it's poking fun at the idea that whites are morally superior, but never realize that there was a time in the history of that phrase that it actually ENDORSED that position
Irony is really tricky that way

him: Hm, that's interesting. I am curious as to how I've never encountered it at all. Does it tend to be regional, do you think?

me: oh, gosh, I'd imagine so
When I hear it in my head, I hear it in a southern accent
and, you know, my grandfather used to use the phrase "free, white and 21" all the time, so it's not like I haven't had plenty of occasion to hear really casually racist language for a long time
also, though, Spike Lee riffs on it in one of his films, so it has SOME national visibility

him: How did this question come up?

me: You know, I have NO IDEA what made me think about it. You know how those chains of thought go. I tried to trace it back about five minutes after I started thinking about it and couldn't get back there.
This is part of why I can't ever get a damn thing done - I'm off and running at the first sign of something else
I have the intellectual discipline of a small child, I swear.

So, anyway, that was that. What I was thinking is that it's an odd thing, actually - I'm reasonably comfortable with the ironic use of it, although I don't think I've ever actually SAID it - I feel kind of like

geoviki does, that I'd have to know my conversants REALLY well, or maybe it's that I'd have to trust that they know ME well enough to not be offended by a use of it? Because it's prickly, and there is a niggle there - not that I think it reflects racist attitudes on the part of anyone who says it, but it's just such an unpleasant world to even skirt, you know? But what I find most interesting is the precise way it turns the content on its head. In its modern usage, it both pokes fun at the idea that whites are morally superior but it also seems (to me) to assert that yes, some people DO believe that to be true, and maybe that's a fine example of what it means to be "mighty white". Which is the point of irony, I guess, but I think it's a bit of a twisty thing because the whole POINT of the joke is that white-ism inherently assumes moral integrity, and you say it to take the piss out of someone who's feeling a bit puffed-up - the content gives the irony an extra punch, I guess. So if you say it, you say something like, "get over yourself" at the same time that you're pointing out that someone's moral authority might be coming from a pretty flimsy place. This ASSUMES it's said to a white speaker - what exactly it means when said to a black speaker is an equally fascinating bundle. And all that comes from cultural change; in a world where whiteness is equivalent to moral authority, the ironic reading would be unavailable and met with little more than *blink*. Just five little words, folks - god, I love language. ♥ And so, too, the parallel "that's very Christian of you" that

darthfox brought up can have a similar 'piss-taking' reading in some circles - but I think that cultural paradigm shift is very localized and so the ironic reading is really not available to SO MANY US speakers.

And also, just in general, I find taboo language to be of interest, whether it's the standard censor taboo that the Language Log people have such fun riffing about (and see this great blog entry by Scott Adams for more along those lines) or this slightly more subtle, culturally bound stuff. We usually think of taboo and euphemism as being about the big three (sex, excrement, and god) but humans are a creative lot and cultures can find a way to swear by just about anything, and this is arguably far enough removed from its taboo source to muddy the waters.

So, no, not bread,

titanic_days,

jiggery_pokery and

katkim. Although you know I embrace the baked goods, but for my money, if I'm eating bread in the UK, I'd prefer something more breakfasty and with clotted cream - just because I can. :D

+++

Related to nothing, Marc and I were talking about "Banana Splits" early tonight and now I can't get the theme song out of my head. Sing it with me, Gen X-ers - "Tra la la, la la la la. Tra la la, la la la la. One banana two banana three banana four...."

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

"gyp" without ever thinking of gypsies/Rom

I'm going to sound like a moron here, but I had no idea. None.

*facepalms*

Also, oh god, that song.

Dude, it happens. How much contact do most USAmericans have with the Rom on a regular basis - why would we think about this? I didn't realize this till grad school, when one of my profs was flying back and forth to DC to represent Romani interests on the US Holocaust Memorial Council. My moment of horrified realization didn't come in front of him, THANK GOD, but still - A WORLD of *facepalm*

Besides, welshing on a deal? Dutch courage? We are a vile, vile people and it's all there in the idioms, waiting to ambush us.

I've never heard Dutch courage (though I just looked it up), and what does "free, white, and 21" mean? That one's new to me as well.

This one isn't exactly racist, but I thought gas siphons were actually called "Oklahoma credit cards" until like, three years ago. :p

"Free, white and 21" might be really dated and Southern. Basically, it's an excuse for behavior.

A: Dude, don't do that.
B: Hey, I'm free, white, and 21. Back off.

Charming, eh?

Also, hee. The stuff we grow up with, yeah? When I was in middle school, we called short prayers before meals "Baptists blessings", because Baptists were such lightweight Christians in our Assembly of God worldview. :))

I learned a lot of... less PC sayings from my dad -- and often got in trouble when I was little for repeating them, not realizing just how inappropriate they were. Elementary school teachers don't usually appreciate comments like, "It's raining like a cow pissing on a flat rock." :p

Hee. We had O's parent-teacher conference tonight and the teacher mentioned that he seemed very political aware and had a lot to say about those things. Oops. *hides*

Hee! We still tease my dad about the teacher's report he got when he was 11 or so, that he was "unusually well informed." I think that about describes O.

It used to be that 21 was the age of majority, but it was possible even for a white 21-year-old to be bound to some sort of indentured service (usually paid, for white folks, but still). So if you were free, white, and twenty-one, you were entitled to do whatever you damn pleased -- you could sign contracts, own land, vote, etc., etc. Recall that representation in the government was originally determined by counting the whole number of free persons and three-fifths of all other persons. When that article was amended, and the odious 3/5 compromise went away, the whiteness of a free 21-year-old became legally much less relevant -- but the phrase stuck around, the implication being a relic of the old fact that only those who were free, white, and 21 (and male, of course, but somehow that never entered into it) were full citizens.

Some time in the past few years -- I remember, this was on television -- some politician in (I believe) Florida was doing a classroom visit and the first-graders were asking all those sort of first-grade questions; and one of the questions had to do with who was allowed to become [senator, governor, whatever]. And the guy said "Oh, anyone can do it. Anyone at all. Just gotta be free, white, and twenty-one. -- No, you don't have to be white anymore, I guess." I mean. It was literally a fraction of a second between his saying it and his correcting himself, which showed that he didn't actually believe non-white citizens were inferior in any way -- but the phrase was there in his language, which showed that (at least when he was growing up) the phrase remained current, even though by then it must have been absolutely irrelevant.

I don't think "free, white, and twenty-one" is as offensive as "that's mighty white of you" (in the non-ironic sense that most of us were talking about). That is, it refers to the same outdated and offensive ideas, but I think of the phrase itself as so outdated that it's hard for me to believe anyone could use it sincerely today.

All language is full of such idioms, though. We speak of Dutch courage and taking French leave and whatnot; the French for "French leave" is "running like a Dutchman". And in French a bad tipper is called an Englishman.

See also: Mexican carwash; Chinese fire drill; Russian roulette; Indian giver. But at other times, people take offense where none is actually to be found -- see Michael Steele's hysteria over someone's use of the word "slavishly"; someone else's hysteria over someone else's use of the word "denigrate"; I've known people of Scottish ancestry who would get bugged if you talked about scotching a plan, which, hi, not a thing to do with Scotland or the Scots in any way.

Isn't language fun. :-)

Just gotta be free, white, and twenty-one. -- No, you don't have to be white anymore, I guess.

OK, hee. I don't know, for me this one is pretty racially loaded, but your point is taken about how tightly idiomatically bound it seems to be, at least for that one speaker.

And I don't know, Fox - do you think the non-ironic is still broadly available? I don't think I've EVER heard it used without irony.

The non-ironic what? The non-ironic "free, white, and twenty-one" -- that guy wasn't kidding. Idiomatic, yes. Ironic, no. The usage that is neither idiomatic nor ironic, I don't think is broadly available. There's probably someone somewhere in, I don't know, Montana or who knows what who thinks we ought to get back to the good ol' days, but no, I don't think it's widespread.

The non-ironic "mighty white" -- yes, I think it's broadly available enough that the ironic usage you speak of didn't actually occur to me until you mentioned it, even when whozit and I were talking about the actually disparaging use of "white" in this morning's thread.

Non-ironic "Mexican carwash" etc. -- I couldn't tell you what I think about "Mexican carwash" and "French leave"; I expect they're normally used wryly, but haven't they always been? (Also "Irish beauty".) "Chinese fire drill" has always been silly. "Russian roulette" and "Indian giver" are both absolutely unironic, I'm afraid.

Once I was old enough to think about what I was saying I vaguely had the idea that the phrase "Indian Giver" referred to the way white people cheated Indians. Like, that they would break treaties etc. It was relatively late when I thought oh wait--maybe it's an incredibly hypocritical insult to Native Americans, saying they were basically demanding do-overs to fair deals. I've never read the history of the phrase, but now I assume that's what it is.

What's unfortunate about some of these phrases is they're so useful not as racist insults but as descriptions. I've never connected the phrase "welshing on a deal" to Wales until this moment (I assume you know that's where it comes from) but I can see why the phrase gets used, because it's the correct descriptor to a certain behavior that's just not exclusive to Welshmen. Same with Indian Giver. Probably gyp as well.

I guess whether something continues probably is a combination of the attitudes and how useful the word is. It's like the way so many American phrases comes from gambling, with the literal gambling meaning and sometimes even the original game is completely lost.

Besides, welshing on a deal?

You know, I have always, up until this very moment, thought that the phrase was "welching on a deal" - which, you know, makes absolutely no sense once you think about it, but neither do a lot of idioms. I've never seen it as offensive or culturally-loaded in anyway, probably because who would be offended, other than a bunch of grapes? :))

*seconds this*

I never have used that phrase (or any of the phrases except "gyp" O_O) but I know I won't use it ever now :))

It's fascinating -- while reading the responses to your post earlier I found myself annoyed at the people who automatically assumed it was racially loaded at all, because my mental conditioning makes me start to extrapolate as many possibilities as possible, and the whole white hat-black hat contrast occured to me. I mean, realistically, and obviously now that I've read this, it IS racially loaded. But I think that someone who was pretty sheltered but who, say, I dunno, had a lot of exposure to allegorical works like folk tales and fairy tales, etc, might think of the whole white magic/black magic thing as opposed to race.

Which is not to say that that distinction doesn't have racial overtones.

Sigh.

I think I am twisting myself into circles.

No, it's complicated! And strangely difficult to articulate well. :-/

I think I get what you're saying here - the racial overtones are not obvious on the face of the expression, because there's a whole other web of cultural references for the word "white". I'm trying to remember where I first heard this, and if I had any confusion about it, but I think it was too long ago for me to really remember well.

Exactly.

And wow am I procrastinating now.

*flees to high-end real estate land*

Man, Jo, I saw your post, and obviously I am not the person to consult for attention to task. :)) I find desperation to be my best motivator, which doesn't really help you here, does it? *hugs you*

Well, desperation here is $5 in the checking account and the prospect of having $500 by Saturday. That is what I'm looking towards. :D

Yeah, exactly.

And now my head hurts. *ow*

~Relaynie

Interesting stuff. I figured it was racially loaded, of course, and I think that branding might have been done away with for several reasons in the same way that Robertson's jam did away with the 'golliwog', and Camp Coffee now has the Sikh dude sitting down next to the British army officer instead of serving him.

Interestingly, I once got pounced upon in an HP4GU chat by one of the American fandomers. We'd got onto discussing refuse collections for some reason, and I pointed out that the big plastic sacks we have here for domestic use are coloured black. For some reason this idiot got absolutely riled up about this and I still don't understand why. Well, I understand, but that's taking the racist conceit too far, surely?

But, my dear lady, I do hope you weren't suggesting clotted cream for breakfast. Some things simply aren't done, dontchaknow?

So, what, you weren't even supposed to say the word? *scoffs*

Hee, well, actually, that does sound kind of gross right now, although I eat cold pizza and chicken for lunch, so it's not like I'm dogmatic about these things. What I mean there is that I tend to think of quickbread kinds of things (muffins! scones!) as breakfasty breads - for no apparent reason at all. :D

Alllleeeeexxxxxx, are you coming to the US next summer? < / whine>

he whole POINT of the joke is that white-ism inherently assumes moral integrity, and you say it to take the piss out of someone who's feeling a bit puffed-up - the content gives the irony an extra punch.

I saw the earlier post on friendsfriends this morning and was thinking all day about how to say exactly the above. That phrase is very commonly used in my family but in a sense that absolutely is loaded with the racial baggage it carries - it's meant to call out a sense of (unjustified) entitlement or superiority. I was really taken aback by the majority of the comments this morning - I never thought of someone hearing the phrase and *not* understanding it that way.

I don't think I've ever said it much outside the family circle anyhow, but I'm for darn sure going to be more careful about it now.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Follow up to this morning's post

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject