Follow up to this morning's post

[wordplay]

The post in question

God, do y'all rule. Responses to individual comments coming soon, but I decided to make this its own post just to keep from typing the same stuff out multiple times - just seemed a neater way to continue the conversation. THANK YOU to those who chimed in previously - lots of food for thought in there, and I know because I've been chewing on it all day.

So I was chatting with Josh today (who, by the way, appears to have left LJ behind but who is in fact still alive and well) about all this, and I had to fill him in on it, so this is what I said:

him: And no, I've never heard that expression...what's it meant to mean?

me: well, that's the thing
it USED to mean, "what a fine upstanding thing to do"
but now it's used more ironically and is v. similar to "gee, that's awfully big of you"
and what I'm trying to tease out is whether people who would never use the first one because it's so overtly racist find the second meaning more acceptable for their personal use
because it's such a conscious undermining of the racist content
or if just HAVING it there is still too much
but that's really tricky - most of the respondents have been like, "racist, same as 'jew you down'" that kind of thing

him: That's interesting.

me: which I think might miss the point?
I don't know

him: Well, it misses the point of your question. :)

me: well, because I didn't ASK the question
Because, you know, you don't want to lead people

him: I mean, yes, obviously it's racist, but the question is whether using it with a more sardonic meaning undercuts the racism.

me: These are really hard to solicit well, actually
well, and also
I think there are people who could use it who would never KNOW that it was once said as quite sincere praise
kind of like how people use the word "gyp" without ever thinking of gypsies/Rom?
only not exactly - like, they might realize that it's poking fun at the idea that whites are morally superior, but never realize that there was a time in the history of that phrase that it actually ENDORSED that position
Irony is really tricky that way

him: Hm, that's interesting. I am curious as to how I've never encountered it at all. Does it tend to be regional, do you think?

me: oh, gosh, I'd imagine so
When I hear it in my head, I hear it in a southern accent
and, you know, my grandfather used to use the phrase "free, white and 21" all the time, so it's not like I haven't had plenty of occasion to hear really casually racist language for a long time
also, though, Spike Lee riffs on it in one of his films, so it has SOME national visibility

him: How did this question come up?

me: You know, I have NO IDEA what made me think about it. You know how those chains of thought go. I tried to trace it back about five minutes after I started thinking about it and couldn't get back there.
This is part of why I can't ever get a damn thing done - I'm off and running at the first sign of something else
I have the intellectual discipline of a small child, I swear.


So, anyway, that was that. What I was thinking is that it's an odd thing, actually - I'm reasonably comfortable with the ironic use of it, although I don't think I've ever actually SAID it - I feel kind of like geoviki does, that I'd have to know my conversants REALLY well, or maybe it's that I'd have to trust that they know ME well enough to not be offended by a use of it? Because it's prickly, and there is a niggle there - not that I think it reflects racist attitudes on the part of anyone who says it, but it's just such an unpleasant world to even skirt, you know? But what I find most interesting is the precise way it turns the content on its head. In its modern usage, it both pokes fun at the idea that whites are morally superior but it also seems (to me) to assert that yes, some people DO believe that to be true, and maybe that's a fine example of what it means to be "mighty white". Which is the point of irony, I guess, but I think it's a bit of a twisty thing because the whole POINT of the joke is that white-ism inherently assumes moral integrity, and you say it to take the piss out of someone who's feeling a bit puffed-up - the content gives the irony an extra punch, I guess. So if you say it, you say something like, "get over yourself" at the same time that you're pointing out that someone's moral authority might be coming from a pretty flimsy place. This ASSUMES it's said to a white speaker - what exactly it means when said to a black speaker is an equally fascinating bundle. And all that comes from cultural change; in a world where whiteness is equivalent to moral authority, the ironic reading would be unavailable and met with little more than *blink*. Just five little words, folks - god, I love language. ♥ And so, too, the parallel "that's very Christian of you" that darthfox brought up can have a similar 'piss-taking' reading in some circles - but I think that cultural paradigm shift is very localized and so the ironic reading is really not available to SO MANY US speakers.

And also, just in general, I find taboo language to be of interest, whether it's the standard censor taboo that the Language Log people have such fun riffing about (and see this great blog entry by Scott Adams for more along those lines) or this slightly more subtle, culturally bound stuff. We usually think of taboo and euphemism as being about the big three (sex, excrement, and god) but humans are a creative lot and cultures can find a way to swear by just about anything, and this is arguably far enough removed from its taboo source to muddy the waters.

So, no, not bread, titanic_days, jiggery_pokery and katkim. Although you know I embrace the baked goods, but for my money, if I'm eating bread in the UK, I'd prefer something more breakfasty and with clotted cream - just because I can. :D

+++

Related to nothing, Marc and I were talking about "Banana Splits" early tonight and now I can't get the theme song out of my head. Sing it with me, Gen X-ers - "Tra la la, la la la la. Tra la la, la la la la. One banana two banana three banana four...."

Comments

[darthfox.livejournal.com]

It used to be that 21 was the age of majority, but it was possible even for a white 21-year-old to be bound to some sort of indentured service (usually paid, for white folks, but still). So if you were free, white, and twenty-one, you were entitled to do whatever you damn pleased -- you could sign contracts, own land, vote, etc., etc. Recall that representation in the government was originally determined by counting the whole number of free persons and three-fifths of all other persons. When that article was amended, and the odious 3/5 compromise went away, the whiteness of a free 21-year-old became legally much less relevant -- but the phrase stuck around, the implication being a relic of the old fact that only those who were free, white, and 21 (and male, of course, but somehow that never entered into it) were full citizens.

Some time in the past few years -- I remember, this was on television -- some politician in (I believe) Florida was doing a classroom visit and the first-graders were asking all those sort of first-grade questions; and one of the questions had to do with who was allowed to become [senator, governor, whatever]. And the guy said "Oh, anyone can do it. Anyone at all. Just gotta be free, white, and twenty-one. -- No, you don't have to be white anymore, I guess." I mean. It was literally a fraction of a second between his saying it and his correcting himself, which showed that he didn't actually believe non-white citizens were inferior in any way -- but the phrase was there in his language, which showed that (at least when he was growing up) the phrase remained current, even though by then it must have been absolutely irrelevant.

I don't think "free, white, and twenty-one" is as offensive as "that's mighty white of you" (in the non-ironic sense that most of us were talking about). That is, it refers to the same outdated and offensive ideas, but I think of the phrase itself as so outdated that it's hard for me to believe anyone could use it sincerely today.

All language is full of such idioms, though. We speak of Dutch courage and taking French leave and whatnot; the French for "French leave" is "running like a Dutchman". And in French a bad tipper is called an Englishman.

See also: Mexican carwash; Chinese fire drill; Russian roulette; Indian giver. But at other times, people take offense where none is actually to be found -- see Michael Steele's hysteria over someone's use of the word "slavishly"; someone else's hysteria over someone else's use of the word "denigrate"; I've known people of Scottish ancestry who would get bugged if you talked about scotching a plan, which, hi, not a thing to do with Scotland or the Scots in any way.

Isn't language fun. :-)

[wordplay.livejournal.com]

Just gotta be free, white, and twenty-one. -- No, you don't have to be white anymore, I guess.

OK, hee. I don't know, for me this one is pretty racially loaded, but your point is taken about how tightly idiomatically bound it seems to be, at least for that one speaker.

And I don't know, Fox - do you think the non-ironic is still broadly available? I don't think I've EVER heard it used without irony.

[darthfox.livejournal.com]

The non-ironic what? The non-ironic "free, white, and twenty-one" -- that guy wasn't kidding. Idiomatic, yes. Ironic, no. The usage that is neither idiomatic nor ironic, I don't think is broadly available. There's probably someone somewhere in, I don't know, Montana or who knows what who thinks we ought to get back to the good ol' days, but no, I don't think it's widespread.

The non-ironic "mighty white" -- yes, I think it's broadly available enough that the ironic usage you speak of didn't actually occur to me until you mentioned it, even when whozit and I were talking about the actually disparaging use of "white" in this morning's thread.

Non-ironic "Mexican carwash" etc. -- I couldn't tell you what I think about "Mexican carwash" and "French leave"; I expect they're normally used wryly, but haven't they always been? (Also "Irish beauty".) "Chinese fire drill" has always been silly. "Russian roulette" and "Indian giver" are both absolutely unironic, I'm afraid.