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Follow up to this morning's post
The post in question
God, do y'all rule. Responses to individual comments coming soon, but I decided to make this its own post just to keep from typing the same stuff out multiple times - just seemed a neater way to continue the conversation. THANK YOU to those who chimed in previously - lots of food for thought in there, and I know because I've been chewing on it all day.
So I was chatting with Josh today (who, by the way, appears to have left LJ behind but who is in fact still alive and well) about all this, and I had to fill him in on it, so this is what I said:
him: And no, I've never heard that expression...what's it meant to mean?
me: well, that's the thing
it USED to mean, "what a fine upstanding thing to do"
but now it's used more ironically and is v. similar to "gee, that's awfully big of you"
and what I'm trying to tease out is whether people who would never use the first one because it's so overtly racist find the second meaning more acceptable for their personal use
because it's such a conscious undermining of the racist content
or if just HAVING it there is still too much
but that's really tricky - most of the respondents have been like, "racist, same as 'jew you down'" that kind of thing
him: That's interesting.
me: which I think might miss the point?
I don't know
him: Well, it misses the point of your question. :)
me: well, because I didn't ASK the question
Because, you know, you don't want to lead people
him: I mean, yes, obviously it's racist, but the question is whether using it with a more sardonic meaning undercuts the racism.
me: These are really hard to solicit well, actually
well, and also
I think there are people who could use it who would never KNOW that it was once said as quite sincere praise
kind of like how people use the word "gyp" without ever thinking of gypsies/Rom?
only not exactly - like, they might realize that it's poking fun at the idea that whites are morally superior, but never realize that there was a time in the history of that phrase that it actually ENDORSED that position
Irony is really tricky that way
him: Hm, that's interesting. I am curious as to how I've never encountered it at all. Does it tend to be regional, do you think?
me: oh, gosh, I'd imagine so
When I hear it in my head, I hear it in a southern accent
and, you know, my grandfather used to use the phrase "free, white and 21" all the time, so it's not like I haven't had plenty of occasion to hear really casually racist language for a long time
also, though, Spike Lee riffs on it in one of his films, so it has SOME national visibility
him: How did this question come up?
me: You know, I have NO IDEA what made me think about it. You know how those chains of thought go. I tried to trace it back about five minutes after I started thinking about it and couldn't get back there.
This is part of why I can't ever get a damn thing done - I'm off and running at the first sign of something else
I have the intellectual discipline of a small child, I swear.
So, anyway, that was that. What I was thinking is that it's an odd thing, actually - I'm reasonably comfortable with the ironic use of it, although I don't think I've ever actually SAID it - I feel kind of like![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
geoviki does, that I'd have to know my conversants REALLY well, or maybe it's that I'd have to trust that they know ME well enough to not be offended by a use of it? Because it's prickly, and there is a niggle there - not that I think it reflects racist attitudes on the part of anyone who says it, but it's just such an unpleasant world to even skirt, you know? But what I find most interesting is the precise way it turns the content on its head. In its modern usage, it both pokes fun at the idea that whites are morally superior but it also seems (to me) to assert that yes, some people DO believe that to be true, and maybe that's a fine example of what it means to be "mighty white". Which is the point of irony, I guess, but I think it's a bit of a twisty thing because the whole POINT of the joke is that white-ism inherently assumes moral integrity, and you say it to take the piss out of someone who's feeling a bit puffed-up - the content gives the irony an extra punch, I guess. So if you say it, you say something like, "get over yourself" at the same time that you're pointing out that someone's moral authority might be coming from a pretty flimsy place. This ASSUMES it's said to a white speaker - what exactly it means when said to a black speaker is an equally fascinating bundle. And all that comes from cultural change; in a world where whiteness is equivalent to moral authority, the ironic reading would be unavailable and met with little more than *blink*. Just five little words, folks - god, I love language. ♥ And so, too, the parallel "that's very Christian of you" that darthfox brought up can have a similar 'piss-taking' reading in some circles - but I think that cultural paradigm shift is very localized and so the ironic reading is really not available to SO MANY US speakers.
And also, just in general, I find taboo language to be of interest, whether it's the standard censor taboo that the Language Log people have such fun riffing about (and see this great blog entry by Scott Adams for more along those lines) or this slightly more subtle, culturally bound stuff. We usually think of taboo and euphemism as being about the big three (sex, excrement, and god) but humans are a creative lot and cultures can find a way to swear by just about anything, and this is arguably far enough removed from its taboo source to muddy the waters.
So, no, not bread,titanic_days, jiggery_pokery and katkim. Although you know I embrace the baked goods, but for my money, if I'm eating bread in the UK, I'd prefer something more breakfasty and with clotted cream - just because I can. :D
+++
Related to nothing, Marc and I were talking about "Banana Splits" early tonight and now I can't get the theme song out of my head. Sing it with me, Gen X-ers - "Tra la la, la la la la. Tra la la, la la la la. One banana two banana three banana four...."
God, do y'all rule. Responses to individual comments coming soon, but I decided to make this its own post just to keep from typing the same stuff out multiple times - just seemed a neater way to continue the conversation. THANK YOU to those who chimed in previously - lots of food for thought in there, and I know because I've been chewing on it all day.
So I was chatting with Josh today (who, by the way, appears to have left LJ behind but who is in fact still alive and well) about all this, and I had to fill him in on it, so this is what I said:
him: And no, I've never heard that expression...what's it meant to mean?
me: well, that's the thing
it USED to mean, "what a fine upstanding thing to do"
but now it's used more ironically and is v. similar to "gee, that's awfully big of you"
and what I'm trying to tease out is whether people who would never use the first one because it's so overtly racist find the second meaning more acceptable for their personal use
because it's such a conscious undermining of the racist content
or if just HAVING it there is still too much
but that's really tricky - most of the respondents have been like, "racist, same as 'jew you down'" that kind of thing
him: That's interesting.
me: which I think might miss the point?
I don't know
him: Well, it misses the point of your question. :)
me: well, because I didn't ASK the question
Because, you know, you don't want to lead people
him: I mean, yes, obviously it's racist, but the question is whether using it with a more sardonic meaning undercuts the racism.
me: These are really hard to solicit well, actually
well, and also
I think there are people who could use it who would never KNOW that it was once said as quite sincere praise
kind of like how people use the word "gyp" without ever thinking of gypsies/Rom?
only not exactly - like, they might realize that it's poking fun at the idea that whites are morally superior, but never realize that there was a time in the history of that phrase that it actually ENDORSED that position
Irony is really tricky that way
him: Hm, that's interesting. I am curious as to how I've never encountered it at all. Does it tend to be regional, do you think?
me: oh, gosh, I'd imagine so
When I hear it in my head, I hear it in a southern accent
and, you know, my grandfather used to use the phrase "free, white and 21" all the time, so it's not like I haven't had plenty of occasion to hear really casually racist language for a long time
also, though, Spike Lee riffs on it in one of his films, so it has SOME national visibility
him: How did this question come up?
me: You know, I have NO IDEA what made me think about it. You know how those chains of thought go. I tried to trace it back about five minutes after I started thinking about it and couldn't get back there.
This is part of why I can't ever get a damn thing done - I'm off and running at the first sign of something else
I have the intellectual discipline of a small child, I swear.
So, anyway, that was that. What I was thinking is that it's an odd thing, actually - I'm reasonably comfortable with the ironic use of it, although I don't think I've ever actually SAID it - I feel kind of like
geoviki does, that I'd have to know my conversants REALLY well, or maybe it's that I'd have to trust that they know ME well enough to not be offended by a use of it? Because it's prickly, and there is a niggle there - not that I think it reflects racist attitudes on the part of anyone who says it, but it's just such an unpleasant world to even skirt, you know? But what I find most interesting is the precise way it turns the content on its head. In its modern usage, it both pokes fun at the idea that whites are morally superior but it also seems (to me) to assert that yes, some people DO believe that to be true, and maybe that's a fine example of what it means to be "mighty white". Which is the point of irony, I guess, but I think it's a bit of a twisty thing because the whole POINT of the joke is that white-ism inherently assumes moral integrity, and you say it to take the piss out of someone who's feeling a bit puffed-up - the content gives the irony an extra punch, I guess. So if you say it, you say something like, "get over yourself" at the same time that you're pointing out that someone's moral authority might be coming from a pretty flimsy place. This ASSUMES it's said to a white speaker - what exactly it means when said to a black speaker is an equally fascinating bundle. And all that comes from cultural change; in a world where whiteness is equivalent to moral authority, the ironic reading would be unavailable and met with little more than *blink*. Just five little words, folks - god, I love language. ♥ And so, too, the parallel "that's very Christian of you" that darthfox brought up can have a similar 'piss-taking' reading in some circles - but I think that cultural paradigm shift is very localized and so the ironic reading is really not available to SO MANY US speakers.And also, just in general, I find taboo language to be of interest, whether it's the standard censor taboo that the Language Log people have such fun riffing about (and see this great blog entry by Scott Adams for more along those lines) or this slightly more subtle, culturally bound stuff. We usually think of taboo and euphemism as being about the big three (sex, excrement, and god) but humans are a creative lot and cultures can find a way to swear by just about anything, and this is arguably far enough removed from its taboo source to muddy the waters.
So, no, not bread,
titanic_days, jiggery_pokery and katkim. Although you know I embrace the baked goods, but for my money, if I'm eating bread in the UK, I'd prefer something more breakfasty and with clotted cream - just because I can. :D+++
Related to nothing, Marc and I were talking about "Banana Splits" early tonight and now I can't get the theme song out of my head. Sing it with me, Gen X-ers - "Tra la la, la la la la. Tra la la, la la la la. One banana two banana three banana four...."
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