wordplay | (no subject)

A friend and I were having a conversation about the expectations of friends and how we're supposed to manage them. We were talking about things that friends had done recently that had really kind of disappointed us, things that we thought were beneath them. I said, well, I probably shouldn't have said a single word about that, because it's not really my JOB to tell people what I think about everything. And then she said, yeah, no, it's really not, and told me a story about how she had been really disappointed in a friend and somebody said, well, no - you can't be disappointed, because you're not responsible for her behavior.

And I'm really not sure. I get proud for friends, people who I watch struggle and who I KNOW have had to work so hard, and by the logic of no-responsibility I'm not supposed to feel that, either. And I really believe in the regulatory power of the social network, the little groups that we build around us to help shape our visions of ourselves and our expectations for our lives. I think it's nice to have people have expectations of us. So few of us are part of church families or the kind of extended social networks that model tribal relationships; few of us are near our extended families. That kind of freedom is so, well, freeing but I do wonder if we're happier (as the social creatures humans are, even those of us who are strongly introverted) if we have more people pulling at us, giving us expectations and parameters. It doesn't FEEL true (I spend a portion of my life feeling like people are chipping away at my autonomy and trying not to resent the people I love - it's not pretty, I know, but there you are) but I wonder if it is, anyway. Do we have some kind of ownership in our friends' lives, a kind of investment in the people they are?

What do you think?

Threaded | Flat

Do we have some kind of ownership in our friends' lives, a kind of investment in the people they are?

Of course we do. There is a non-trivial extent to which the people our friends are reflects on us, right; we are known in part by the society we keep. See, e.g.: Wright, Jeremiah A.

So with that in mind, it's totally not wrong to be disappointed when our friends, well, disappoint us. But I don't think that's the kind of disappointment-in-people you're actually talking about. You're not speaking of Transgressions that are serious enough to have you saying Look, I cannot be associated with this person, any more than you're speaking of Achievements or whatever that are impressive enough that they reflect on you merely by being friends with that person. You're just talking about Hmm, I'd have played that differently -- and of course it's not wrong to feel that way (as if you could change your knee-jerk reactions anyway), just like it's never wrong to be pleased for them when they succeed. (Unless you're Gore Vidal: "Every time a friend succeeds, I die a little."*)

I lost my train of thought in there for a second. Hope it makes sense. To sum up, I suggest that there are two paradigms: in one, the actions of our associates reflect on us, and therefore we have standing to be negatively critical if our associates' behavior warrants it. The standard for inclusion in this category is pretty high, I'd say, behavior-wise, though it's lower the closer the person is to us, so we have more standing with our close friends and our parents and our siblings and our spouses and children (in approximately that order). In the other, we have opinions with regard to the actions of our associates, but because those actions don't really impact us directly or indirectly it's not really for us to get involved. So in that group, it's not our place to criticize. (This theory assumes that praise is always welcome and appropriate; it's not, but that's not really the question here.)

So is what's happening that you're crossing wires? When you feel proud for friends who have struggled and worked hard etc., you're happy for them, but not because it makes you look good to be friends with such a person, right? It's not the same as the kind of naches you feel when your kids do well in school or sing great in the pageant or whatever. Similarly, when you feel disappointed in your friends for Whatever, is it because you think people whose opinions you value will think less of you for being friends with those people? And if not, why stir shit up by calling them on it?

Okay, I've stopped making sense now. I'm just trying to work out if I'm the one having the conversation in your intro; could be, but I don't remember what story I'd have told at the end of the first graf.

*There's a chance this was actually Oscar Wilde, and what Gore Vidal said was "It is not enough to succeed; others must fail." Anh. The idea's the same.

I try to behave because of the people around me. I can think of a few instances when I haven't done something because (says my brain) Simon would be disappointed.

I guess you have as much ownership as you're willing to give people. I don't want people to be disappointed in me, so I try to behave in a way that is at least passable, if not always in a way you can be proud of.

I know what I take pride in having done and what makes me feel bad about myself. I want my friends to be able to stand up and say "Yes, I did well there." and if they don't, I want to be able to say it about them. I don't like condemning the behaviour of a friend and thinking that someone I love isn't worthy of it. It does lessen you if the people you love aren't worthy of your respect, you owe it to your friends not to cheapen them like that.

*has Opinions*

I think it depends on the friendship and how much you care about the person.

I mean, really, when you feel strongly enough to tell someone that they've disappointed you it's not because their actions is reflecting on you but because you honestly know that person is capable of more. Or people you care enough about them to not want to see them make an ass of themselves.

The people that I feel closest to and respect the most are the ones that I totally expect to tell me when I've been an idiot. And they are also the ones I feel that I can be honest with and tell them that they've been an idiot. But then that is me and that is how I value my friends and friendships.

Oh god, I haven't been the idiot, have I? Go on... you can tell me!

I think you can't help feeling disappointed if that's how you feel, but that's not the same as feeling you own the person or are being too judgmental. You can totally respect your friend's freedom and know their lives are up to them and still occasionally tell them if they've done something you thought was beneath them. Of course some people cross that line into where it really isn't their business or where they're not being appropriate. I mean, like, if a friend is telling you you should have taken a job you didn't want or shouldn't divorce your spouse when you think it's a right thing. That's going to cause problems. But being a friend is a give and take and I'd think it's assumed you have some expecations about the other person's character.

If you don't care at all what they do one way or the other, that's not always a sign of friendship. Sometimes it just means you don't care. To take an extreme example, if your friend is addicted to drugs are you a better friend to just not care or to be someone who says, "Hey, I'm not going to tell you what to do but it's upsetting to me to see you doing stuff I think is harmful to yourself."