(no subject)

[wordplay]

A friend and I were having a conversation about the expectations of friends and how we're supposed to manage them. We were talking about things that friends had done recently that had really kind of disappointed us, things that we thought were beneath them. I said, well, I probably shouldn't have said a single word about that, because it's not really my JOB to tell people what I think about everything. And then she said, yeah, no, it's really not, and told me a story about how she had been really disappointed in a friend and somebody said, well, no - you can't be disappointed, because you're not responsible for her behavior.

And I'm really not sure. I get proud for friends, people who I watch struggle and who I KNOW have had to work so hard, and by the logic of no-responsibility I'm not supposed to feel that, either. And I really believe in the regulatory power of the social network, the little groups that we build around us to help shape our visions of ourselves and our expectations for our lives. I think it's nice to have people have expectations of us. So few of us are part of church families or the kind of extended social networks that model tribal relationships; few of us are near our extended families. That kind of freedom is so, well, freeing but I do wonder if we're happier (as the social creatures humans are, even those of us who are strongly introverted) if we have more people pulling at us, giving us expectations and parameters. It doesn't FEEL true (I spend a portion of my life feeling like people are chipping away at my autonomy and trying not to resent the people I love - it's not pretty, I know, but there you are) but I wonder if it is, anyway. Do we have some kind of ownership in our friends' lives, a kind of investment in the people they are?

What do you think?

Comments

[wordplay.livejournal.com]

why stir shit up by calling them on it?

Well, I mean, that's it, isn't it? It's not about reflecting on me, it's much more about wanting them to be better people because I care about them, because I believe that being a better, healthier person is its own reward and will ultimately bring more happiness. So, you know, you stir some shit up today but you eventually help things to be better, more deeply and fundamentally better.

I'm just not completely sure it works that way. I think it SHOULD, and I think it CAN, I'm just not sure it does.

And heh, no, I'm making specific reference to a chat I had today, although I know why you consider yourself a likely candidate. :D

[darthfox.livejournal.com]

wanting them to be better people because I care about them

Well; I guess the other thing is, the line there is drawn somewhere between being a decent member of society (on the one hand) and conforming to one individual's preferences (on the other). You know? I mean, you say eventually you help things to be more deeply and fundamentally better -- that's skating perilously close to who the fuck are you, isn't it? Anecdote: in high school, I had a friend who insisted on praying for me (and other non-believing friends) because she cared about us and wanted us to live better, healthier, happier lives etc. She didn't try to get us to pray or come to her church, right, but she did believe that there was some way she could help us to make our lives more deeply and fundamentally better.

Right?

Put another way: be "better people" according to whom, by whose standards? Yours, obviously. But there are issues on which it's worth stirring shit up if someone is behaving in a way I don't like (case in point: last winter, "Jews don't do Christmas music at the National Cathedral", remember?) and ones where, from my POV, face it, I'm not your wife and I'm not your mother, so there's a point past which it's not really my business how you choose to behave. (Not you you. The hypothetical "you" here.) It's only fair to tell a person if it's getting to a friendship-breaking place with something they could and would change if they knew you cared, but if it's just petty preferences, do I get to decide how and to what degree everyone should Be A Better Person?

signed,
but I still spell my kind of libertarian with a lower-case L, thanks :-D

[wordplay.livejournal.com]

I mean, this is really the core of this issue, and it's where I get uncomfortable, b/c of all of these issues with personal will and individual difference - I perfectly understand what you are saying. But I also think that, OK, part of this other person's personal will is telling me to fuck off, or saying that no no no, I've got it all wrong, they're not at all interested in being that person I thought they wanted to be. I mean, obviously, I have no trouble telling the Mormon missionaries (or my mother) that I'm really not interested in being Christian, and that's part of MY job, not theirs.

I think that the core of our disagreement here actually lies in the details - I mean, who WOULD rock the boat over petty preferences? I don't give a fuck what other people eat for breakfast. But yeah, I think that if I see a friend running headfirst into an emotional wall in a way that I really think is going to give them a Life concussion, I really need to tell them, even if it's going to hurt them and piss them off and make things hard for a while. Similarly, if someone has disappointed me so badly that I'm not sure I can be close to them anymore, I really do think I do better to tell them, "OK, you didn't do this TO ME, but you did it, and who the fuck ARE YOU, anyway, I don't understand this person you are and this is why I can't talk to you anymore." I've done it the other way, where I just removed myself from the life of somebody because I was so disappointed and hurt, and I'm not proud. I would have done her, me, and everybody around us a service by having the balls to tell her exactly what I thought she'd done before I swept out the door.

At a certain point, with all of our lives so unconnected, I'm not sure what mirrors we're supposed to be gazing in. I think we're fundamentally very good at self-deception and that if we're counting on our parents, our partners and ourselves, we're in trouble.

Oh dear, is my J showing? :D